Japan Sony To Release "Birds Of Fire" from Mahavishnu Orchestra/John Mclaughlin on Multichannel Hybrid SACD

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SQ encodes should be correct, assuming the use of a position encoder, the discrete version is tapped off of that. If a discrete tape was merely fed to an SQ encoder then all bets are off, a channel swap could occur. I think that only very early (CBS) encodes were done that way. I suppose that 1973 is still a little bit early in the evolution of SQ encoding techniques but still hard to imagine such an error occurring. Monitoring the decode should of deteteted it, unless those involved were not paying attention! Left to right separation should be equal to the stereo version unless the decoder is using blend.
 
Well this is disappointing but I cant expect the Japanese to get into the weeds and look for channel assignment errors at this level. I ordered this with Santana III and they will ship together in November.
Is this still worth getting to replace the AF version?
Once again I am being forced to become an audio engineer to correct errors....I just like playing discs but Im going to have to learn to digitize archive and and rebalance mixes. Its going to have to wait until retirement for me.
 
Well this is disappointing but I cant expect the Japanese to get into the weeds and look for channel assignment errors at this level. I ordered this with Santana III and they will ship together in November.
Is this still worth getting to replace the AF version?
Once again I am being forced to become an audio engineer to correct errors....I just like playing discs but Im going to have to learn to digitize archive and and rebalance mixes. Its going to have to wait until retirement for me.

I must have missed the post with the channel assignment comparison?
 
SQ encodes should be correct, assuming the use of a position encoder, the discrete version is tapped off of that.

? The 'discrete' version is the original 4 channel mix. It isn't derived from ('tapped off of') anything but the multitracks. AIUI SQ is derived from the discrete four-channel mix. If tjhat's not the case then there is even more scope for error.

Perhaps a straighforward answer to this is needed:
How does one determine which assignment is 'right' (in, say, the Q8)? Is it by reference to another quad format (say, the SQ), or to the original stereo mix, which is the one the artist is most likely to have personally approved? That is the key question.
 
An interesting observation to make here is that this website QQ is a repository of the worlds experts on quadraphonic releases. Many members here are extremely knowledgable about channel assignment errors etc. We know DV is aware of this site.
Perhaps with a language barrier Sony Japan does not.
All the quad reissuers have to do is to make prerelease enquiries here about prospective quad reissues and get feedback. AF did that but they didnt listen to Jon too much.
Oh well...
 
Sony/Epic and Sony Japan's initial releases of Blow By Blow in quad SACD both had the front/rear phase cancellation error. Later, Audio Fidelity and Sony Japan issued a phase-corrected version. It's unclear to me whether Sony Japan's was an independent transfer/mastering, or simply identical to AF's. Same question applies for BoF.
 
I don't care about the channel mix up, I like to know if it sounds better than the AF. To me that one is a little thin sounding.
 
? The 'discrete' version is the original 4 channel mix. It isn't derived from ('tapped off of') anything but the multitracks. AIUI SQ is derived from the discrete four-channel mix. If tjhat's not the case then there is even more scope for error.

Perhaps a straighforward answer to this is needed:
How does one determine which assignment is 'right' (in, say, the Q8)? Is it by reference to another quad format (say, the SQ), or to the original stereo mix, which is the one the artist is most likely to have personally approved? That is the key question.

Wrong please see the posts about the position encoder!! The discrete module fed a discrete version out simultaneously while the decoded SQ mix was monitored while the mixing was being done! Presuming the Position Emcoder was used on this mix.

Most likely the stereo would be correct unless the surround mix was conceived as if you were sitting up on stage in which case the left and right channels would be reversed. Panned effects going in an X pattern is a sign that the channels got swapped someplace along the line, but we still can't be 100% sure if that effect was intended or not. It's very odd that the Q8 would have correct channel assignment while the Quad masters (must) have the channels reversed, in order that the AF, Sony Japan and possibly the SQ all have the same channel reversal.

Presuming the use of the position encoder I would consider that the SQ version would be considered correct, the discrete would of been made in parallel with that at the same time.
Columbia used this process that's why their latter releases sound so good when decoded. Others such as A&M didn't do that which explains the more lacklustre performance of their matrix (vs discrete) versions.

Edit: I Just checked the Position Encoder came out in January 1974 so "Birds Of Fire" which came out in 1973 so wouldn't of used it.

If as you suggest the SQ was made directly from the discrete master (with a channel swap), why do the quad masters seem to have the same error. Did an additional channel swap when the Q8 was made cancel out the original channel swap. Did AF and Sony swap channels to match the SQ? Those scenarios would seem rather unlikely, but who knows
 
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Sony/Epic and Sony Japan's initial releases of Blow By Blow in quad SACD both had the front/rear phase cancellation error. Later, Audio Fidelity and Sony Japan issued a phase-corrected version. It's unclear to me whether Sony Japan's was an independent transfer/mastering, or simply identical to AF's. Same question applies for BoF.
Gotta wonder, how these type errors can happen. Poor quality control? No one checks/listens to the final product! The phase issue is more serious than the channel swap, and should of been audible to those responsible for the release!
 
Generally speaking, the CBS SQ encodes were done simultaneously with the discrete 4-channel tapes because the engineering department felt that deriving a 2-channel SQ-encoded tape from a 4-channel tape introduced the possibility of more phase error which would degrade the quality of the SQ decode. The upshot of this is that if there are channel assignment errors in the discrete (Q8) version of a release, they'll also exist in the SQ LP version. Take Earth, Wind & Fire's That's the Way of the World (another Don Young quad mix) for example - one side of the album had the phase inverted in one of the front channels (which is surely not an intentional decision) and this 'feature' (ie mistake) exists on both the SQ LP and Q8 releases of this title.

The reason I know without a shadow of a doubt that there's a channel assignment error on Birds of Fire is that there's no way to replicate what happens on the drum roll that opens One Word using any kind of quad joystick panner that would've existed at the time. There are points in that pan where the sound appararently moves diagonally, ie right rear to front left, front right to rear left, and so on. There's no way to do this with a joystick panner: think about it, let's say you're in rear right, and you want to slowly move to front left - the halfway point between those two positions in "quad center" (ie where the joystick would rest in the middle if you weren't touching it at all) and at this (brief) point you should be hearing the same mono signal at equal power in all 4 channels. This doesn't happen in the One Word intro, instead you hear it in only two of the four channels (ie FL/RR or FR/RL) as the pan 'moves' around the room.

The 'upside' with this album is that aside from the opening to One Word, there's essentially no other interaction between the front and rear channels, so if the weird schizophrenic 'X' pan (and the fact that the instruments in the front are stereo imaged oppositely to the way they are in the original stereo mix) then there's no need to worry about, or 'fix' this album. But if you're like me, and like things to be "correct" just for the sake of being correct, it's an easy thing to remedy, especially if you have your collection ripped digitally - apply the fix using @HomerJAU 's MMH after you rip it and you never have to think about it again.

I honestly don't begrudge Sony Japan for not having fixed this, because they were probably just following the channel assignments on the tape box, and the only information and discussion about the channel error is hidden deep in a 5-year-old thread on some enthusiast forum in another language. The only reason that AP fixed the phase issues on Blow by Blow was because Brian Moura was friendly with Gus Skinas and alerted him to my findings about the problem when he was authoring the SACD for them a few years back - otherwise I'm sure it would've been out-of-phase just like the Sony Japan issue. Note that even the "correct" AP version of Blow by Blow still exhibits the 'LFE delay bug' because it came out some years before I identified this as a problem, and it's why that album still shows as having phase problems on a phase meter even with the main channels corrected.
 
Generally speaking, the CBS SQ encodes were done simultaneously with the discrete 4-channel tapes because the engineering department felt that deriving a 2-channel SQ-encoded tape from a 4-channel tape introduced the possibility of more phase error which would degrade the quality of the SQ decode. The upshot of this is that if there are channel assignment errors in the discrete (Q8) version of a release, they'll also exist in the SQ LP version. Take Earth, Wind & Fire's That's the Way of the World (another Don Young quad mix) for example - one side of the album had the phase inverted in one of the front channels (which is surely not an intentional decision) and this 'feature' (ie mistake) exists on both the SQ LP and Q8 releases of this title.

The reason I know without a shadow of a doubt that there's a channel assignment error on Birds of Fire is that there's no way to replicate what happens on the drum roll that opens One Word using any kind of quad joystick panner that would've existed at the time. There are points in that pan where the sound appararently moves diagonally, ie right rear to front left, front right to rear left, and so on. There's no way to do this with a joystick panner: think about it, let's say you're in rear right, and you want to slowly move to front left - the halfway point between those two positions in "quad center" (ie where the joystick would rest in the middle if you weren't touching it at all) and at this (brief) point you should be hearing the same mono signal at equal power in all 4 channels. This doesn't happen in the One Word intro, instead you hear it in only two of the four channels (ie FL/RR or FR/RL) as the pan 'moves' around the room.

The 'upside' with this album is that aside from the opening to One Word, there's essentially no other interaction between the front and rear channels, so if the weird schizophrenic 'X' pan (and the fact that the instruments in the front are stereo imaged oppositely to the way they are in the original stereo mix) then there's no need to worry about, or 'fix' this album. But if you're like me, and like things to be "correct" just for the sake of being correct, it's an easy thing to remedy, especially if you have your collection ripped digitally - apply the fix using @HomerJAU 's MMH after you rip it and you never have to think about it again.

I honestly don't begrudge Sony Japan for not having fixed this, because they were probably just following the channel assignments on the tape box, and the only information and discussion about the channel error is hidden deep in a 5-year-old thread on some enthusiast forum in another language. The only reason that AP fixed the phase issues on Blow by Blow was because Brian Moura was friendly with Gus Skinas and alerted him to my findings about the problem when he was authoring the SACD for them a few years back - otherwise I'm sure it would've been out-of-phase just like the Sony Japan issue. Note that even the "correct" AP version of Blow by Blow still exhibits the 'LFE delay bug' because it came out some years before I identified this as a problem, and it's why that album still shows as having phase problems on a phase meter even with the main channels corrected.
I misread ssully's post, I thought that he said that the channel assignment of the Q8 was correct. Yes it appears that the front channels got reversed on the Quad master somehow. That error would have been transferred to all the quad releases since then.

Edit: Reading farther back I see that ssully did say that the Q8 was correct!
 
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I got mine today seems more robust sounding than the legacy sacd, if I have time will do an a-b comparison...
 
Sony/Epic and Sony Japan's initial releases of Blow By Blow in quad SACD both had the front/rear phase cancellation error. Later, Audio Fidelity and Sony Japan issued a phase-corrected version. It's unclear to me whether Sony Japan's was an independent transfer/mastering, or simply identical to AF's. Same question applies for BoF.
You must mean Analogue Productions and not AF? And I never heard about Sony Japan doing a phase correction on BBB? I thought one had to get the AP SACD for that.
 
I got mine today seems more robust sounding than the legacy sacd, if I have time will do an a-b comparison...
You are talking about stereo only here I take it? Which is the legacy SACD?

Just trying to keep things on track, it seems easy for things to get confusing where they need not.
 
It just seems a bit incongruous that being privy to the QUAD masters that upon playback the channel swap anomaly would be conspicuously evident when instead of the drums rotating clockwise they manifest themselves in a diagonal pattern which should've been a red flag that something was amiss!

I know for years, the VERVE album Getz/Gilberto had swapped L & R channels in their stereo version and was only corrected a few years ago when Analogue Productions finally righted it on their Stereo SACD and LP reissues.

https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/...Gilberto-Getz_and_Gilberto-Hybrid_Stereo_SACD
 
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You are talking about stereo only here I take it? Which is the legacy SACD?

Just trying to keep things on track, it seems easy for things to get confusing where they need not.
NO the multichannel version that has been around.
 
NO the multichannel version that has been around.
OH, The Audio Fidelity disc, commonly called AF in these forums. I've never heard of that specialty audiophile label called "legacy" before. But Sony has a division and line of discs called "Legacy" - but no multichannel has come from that line. See where the confusion is.
 
The more interesting question is whether the Sony Japan SACD is a new mastering or is simply a copy of the AF -- i.e., same levels/EQ -- but I seem to have left my hard drive elsewhere today. So, I'll have to answer that later.

(Japanese Google translation)

"SQ analog and SA-CD have not been released in Japan since its release, will be revived vividly from the analog master with the latest mastering in 2021"
 
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