Stupid Dream 5.1 not MLP - Same issue as with Deadwing

[neil wilkes]

Well said Neil.

However, even if I had permission to have the DTS for free I would buy the DVD-A version. DVD-A is also copy protected. Isn't this a good reason for putting this out in this format? I guess though there are just too few of us that would buy the DVD-A regardless. The band cannot live off the too few dollars from us.

Also, if there are not that many people buying the DTS why don't they release a Dual Disc with a remastered CD on one side and a DVD-A only surround track on the reverse?

Ever tried to get a DualDisc manufacured in the UK?
It's not what you would call easy!
Sony Europe (who have the license) will not even take an order for DVD-Audio.

I hear you loud & clear - hence why I wrote what I did in the way I wrote it - I do believe downloading hurts, but there is much more to it than that.
As far as CP goes on DVD-A, Verance Watermarking is the only one that actually works. The rest of it does not - simple.
The problem lies in the "free for all" culture that our media is promoting for all it's worth in one breath & then roundly condemning as devaluing music in the next. It's hypocrasy.

As far as the general marketing goes, it's down to the labels to promote the product - isn't that why they take the lions share of the royalties? Most bands - unless they go independant - will be lucky to see 15 points of an album. That's 15% of 90% as well, not the full 15% it implies (The industry still takes this 10% off the top as an overhead even though there are no breakages these days & most pressing plants over-run not under-run.)
So the label are taking most of the profit out of the transaction, the stores the next biggest cut.
Yet we see the bands wanting MC & High Rez releases - and the parties making the most money, Stores & labels - whining about the expense of promoting it, or in the case of one well known London Oxford street store - where to put it in their racks (yes, this was used as a reason not to stock DVD-A. It didn't fit into the racks!).

It's looking like we are going to become even more of a minority than we already are, but at least theformat is going to survive.
It's just such a shame that our industry has abandoned the Great Experiment that is High Resolution Audio.

 

[MC Maniac]

I do agree overall with your comments Neil, but the other side is that the internet does alot to promote bands too..

I'm a big prog rock fan yet before In Absentia being mentioned on this forum, I'd never heard a single PT song - I now own every one of their in print CD's..and it's specifically that IA was in high res that it got mentioned here..

I do believe that incremental costs of doing a hires title are more than offset by unmeasurable publicity..

Hi res is another vehicle for the bands to get some attention even if we are a small market - but selling the music studios and artists on this is not easy..

One of my favourite currently active bands is a British group called Pendragon - I have emailed with the members on many occasions trying to get them to issue one of their albums in either hires format - I'm sure if they would they would pick up a new crop of fans just as PT have, but my pleas didn't get far - none of the members have gotten into surround and with money being tight, they aren't likely to spend money on their own..

 

[Dusty Chalk]

Sorry to be clueless, Dusty, but what exactly does that tell us? The Deadwing DTS disc is a DVD-A... so why didn't you get it?

Wait...it is? I thought it was just a DTS CD...(rushes off to store to buy the DVD-A of Deadwing)...

I think it was the packaging that confused me.

 

[Chris Gerhard]

DVD-A is not dead. SACD is, however, and not for the right reasons either. The only reason DVD-A is alive and SACD is seriously unwell is because we, the end users, can make our own DVD-A ourselves.
You cannot do this with an SACD. And it is in the niche Audiophile area our formats will survive.

Yes, SACD appears to be dead and the simple reason has to be Sony lost lots of money with no end in sight. The DVD-A niche is alive and very small and a few titles are trickling out. Hybrid SACD appeared to me to be the only format that had any chance of wide acceptance since the discs play in all CD and DVD players and everybody can understand that but even that didn't help.

Chris

 

[neil wilkes]

Hybrid SACD appeared to me to be the only format that had any chance of wide acceptance since the discs play in all CD and DVD players and everybody can understand that but even that didn't help.

Chris

DualDisc was supposed to have been the DVD-A equivalent of Hybrid SACD - right up until the point where Sony BMG decoded to use DVD-V layers with 16/48 PCM and Dolby Digital 5.1 in a Video_TS........
The original proposal for DD was a DVD-A layer with a RedBook layer.
Not Sony's watered down crap.

 

[sspsandy]

One issue that the music industry seems to miss is that a new redbook cd retails for $18.00 to $20.00, while you can get a new DVD for $15.00 or less. Recently some new artist reaized high chart success (I forget which, a rap title) and they cllaimed it was because they held it back from I-Tunes, but in reality it was due to the sales price being $8.95 on initial release. If these companies would give the music buying public a break they'd see more sales.

 

[Chris Gerhard]

DualDisc was supposed to have been the DVD-A equivalent of Hybrid SACD - right up until the point where Sony BMG decoded to use DVD-V layers with 16/48 PCM and Dolby Digital 5.1 in a Video_TS........
The original proposal for DD was a DVD-A layer with a RedBook layer.
Not Sony's watered down crap.

I wasn't aware of that but I can't find proof the proposed hybrid dual layer DVD-A/Redbook CD was ever shown to be reliable to work on all existing DVD-A, DVD-V and CD players. The DVD-A players which can already play both layers but not designed to handle something like that seem problematic to me but I am not an engineer. I assume it wouldn't have been possible to have DVD-V 5.1 as well, making no backward compatibility for surround with existing DVD-V players. I would think that was much harder to do but if perfected, I would have loved it since it could have offered video extras hybrid SACD can't. Still hybrid SACD is great and DVD-A with compatibility with DVD-V players is pretty good as well but neither has been a success.

The Porcupine Tree DVD-A's are high on my wish list now with "In Absentia" the first one I plan to acquire.

Chris

 

[zabble]

Wait...it is? I thought it was just a DTS CD...(rushes off to store to buy the DVD-A of Deadwing)...

I think it was the packaging that confused me.

There are two surround versions of Deadwing available. The most common is the hi-res DVD-A. Just beware there is a "special edition" that was released a week or so before the DVD-A was originally released. This version is still available from Porcupine Tree's online store. You do not want this "special" edition version as it is a DVD-V. The easiest way to differentiate between the two is that the DVD-A version has three bonus tracks and the DVD-V does not. The puzzling thing is that the DVD-V is in low resolution, has three less tracks, yet is more expensive than the DVD-A @:

 

[timbre4]

Stupid Dream was my introduction to Porcupine Tree and hence, I need it in any 5.1 format. Having said that my preference remains DVD-A but the waters are murky.

We are now in world where it is more or less up to the artists to push for these 5.1 releases as the labels are more and more clueless or abandoned the formats altogether by now.

 

[neil wilkes]

I wasn't aware of that but I can't find proof the proposed hybrid dual layer DVD-A/Redbook CD was ever shown to be reliable to work on all existing DVD-A, DVD-V and CD players. The DVD-A players which can already play both layers but not designed to handle something like that seem problematic to me but I am not an engineer. I assume it wouldn't have been possible to have DVD-V 5.1 as well, making no backward compatibility for surround with existing DVD-V players. I would think that was much harder to do but if perfected, I would have loved it since it could have offered video extras hybrid SACD can't. Still hybrid SACD is great and DVD-A with compatibility with DVD-V players is pretty good as well but neither has been a success.

The Porcupine Tree DVD-A's are high on my wish list now with "In Absentia" the first one I plan to acquire.

Chris

It is perfectly possible to have DVD-A/V layer on a DualDisc.
All you have to do is author the DVD side as a single layer hybrid.
No problem, then it will play in all DVD players, just like it's big brother will.
I must have written dozens of DVD-A/V discs as DVD5 not DVD9.
Video as well as MLP/DTS is not going to happen, DualDisc will only go to DVD5. There ain't the room.
And to be quite honest, it's the music I care about - I could not care less about Video content.
And I wonder how much of the promo video money from sales is given to the bands who paid for them to be made?
TRhe labels demand promo video, them try to sell it to us again.
Give me High Rez music, preferably in 5.1 - and I'm happy.
I'll even take 5.1 in DTS, or if I have no choice at all and I really, really want the disc, I'll buy a DD 5.1 - but it better be good.
Usually, DD only goes right to the bottom of my list - I even returned a Prince disc as all it had was DD when it advertised DTS.

 

[Patrick Cleasby]

One of my favourite currently active bands is a British group called Pendragon - I have emailed with the members on many occasions trying to get them to issue one of their albums in either hires format - I'm sure if they would they would pick up a new crop of fans just as PT have, but my pleas didn't get far - none of the members have gotten into surround and with money being tight, they aren't likely to spend money on their own..

I saw Pendragon in 1985!! Used to love them...

Tell 'em to give us some stereo masters and we'll at least get some stereo HDAD action going for them....!

 

[Patrick Cleasby]

BTW - Might be some good news on Stupid Dream shortly...

 

[MC Maniac]

I saw Pendragon in 1985!! Used to love them...

Tell 'em to give us some stereo masters and we'll at least get some stereo HDAD action going for them....!

I flew over to London last year to finally see em live - they headlined a progrock weekend - one the best shows ever for me..

Like PT, they just keep getting better as they go..newest album is a bit of a change - but previous 2 are their best work..

music would sound amazing in 5.1..

 

[Dart23]

Looking forward to the news Patrick, hopefully it relates to DVD-A.
I'm like almost eveyone else on this one, I'll buy if it's DVD-A, but will not if it's anything else.
Also like others, I bought PT - In Absentia due to DVD-A, didn't have anything by them before that. Bought Deadwing DVD-A and will buy anything else PT as long as it's DVD-A....

 

[Manmc]

I thought Steve Wilson had turned the corner when SD and LS were announced I got into Pt from the In Absentia Dvd-A and have since purchased their entire available back catalogue including some rarer e-bay type ripoffs and am quite willing to buy both of these titles if they are proper Dvd-As only not (lossy) dts !

Perhaps they should observe what's happened with the Mlp version of Dark Side of the Moon ; Emi are too stupid to put it out on Dvd-A so someone's done it just for the love of it for them ( or at least without charge). I think most people would have preferred/paid for a proper release so its their own fault if they're losing income.

I cling to the hope that SW ultimately won't chuck the 'lossy' bits of his own music away easily. He can still have a dts track on it to please his masters if needed...

Go on Steve,
Make us all happy ,
:banana:

~M~

 

[Chris Gerhard]

I thought Steve Wilson had turned the corner when SD and LS were announced I got into Pt from the In Absentia Dvd-A and have since purchased their entire available back catalogue including some rarer e-bay type ripoffs and am quite willing to buy both of these titles if they are proper Dvd-As only not (lossy) dts !

Why buy an eBay ripoff and not a legitimate DTS version which might actually be very good if done properly? Just my opinion but a group that made an effort and released DVD-A titles shouldn't be punished if the economics don't permit further DVD-A releases. The handful of people that threaten to boycott a title if not released in DVD-A can't really help bring back a format that is on life support can it? I haven't heard "Stupid Dream" and doubt if it is big seller in any format but if I like the music, Porcupine Tree will get my business with the best format possible and their history is good in this regard, although not everybody agrees that their surround mixes are well done, they do generally receive high praise.

Chris

 

[Patrick Cleasby]

Why buy an eBay ripoff and not a legitimate DTS version which might actually be very good if done properly? Just my opinion but a group that made an effort and released DVD-A titles shouldn't be punished if the economics don't permit further DVD-A releases. The handful of people that threaten to boycott a title if not released in DVD-A can't really help bring back a format that is on life support can it? I haven't heard "Stupid Dream" and doubt if it is big seller in any format but if I like the music, Porcupine Tree will get my business with the best format possible and their history is good in this regard, although not everybody agrees that their surround mixes are well done, they do generally receive high praise.

Chris

The eBay ripoff comment is no doubt a reference to paying 79 bucks for an original Stars Die single or the like (anybody want to buy a copy?!)

I have never heard anyone dissing those two mixes. Ever.

Why so negative - we've got to try and keep the format going haven't we?

 

[Chris Gerhard]

The eBay ripoff comment is no doubt a reference to paying 79 bucks for an original Stars Die single or the like (anybody want to buy a copy?!)

I have never heard anyone dissing those two mixes. Ever.

Why so negative - we've got to try and keep the format going haven't we?

I didn't mean it to be negative, just suggesting that buying the DTS version if that is the best available would be my recommendation rather than boycotting a band that at least tried to make DVD-A viable. There is a long thread at the AVSforum with criticism of the PT mixes, although most certainly like them.

Chris

 

[Patrick Cleasby]

I didn't mean it to be negative, just suggesting that buying the DTS version if that is the best available would be my recommendation rather than boycotting a band that at least tried to make DVD-A viable. There is a long thread at the AVSforum with criticism of the PT mixes, although most certainly like them.

Chris

I don't go there...! They obviously talk shite...

No need to worry, I think we've proved the point this time...

 

[Guy Robinson]

Fantastic mixes. Those that don't like them are no doubt the same people who say, "It's unnatural to hear instruments behind me" or "I only have 2 ears". They just don't get it.